CLIQUES & INCLUSIVITY DISCUSSION

[MADI]

Hey guys! I’ve heard from a couple of different people now that they feel a bit excluded and left out of the Discord. I want to touch base with everyone and see if there is a general consensus that things are getting cliquey or can be exclusive. I know we have a lot of clusters of characters who are either plot based together or are just banded together, and while I’ve seen some crossing over to plot between the group memberships, I want to make sure that things aren’t getting exclusive and that people aren’t feeling left out. I also want to try to figure out how to combat that.

So! I am going to be adding an additional plotting channel in the discord, for instances when people are going back and forth about a specific plot but someone else wants to say something about plots. It sounds like people just end up holding their plot request for later because they feel like they can’t cut into the ongoing plot discussion or it’d be lost. Adding a second channel will help because they’ll be able to just go there with it, I think.

But I want to hear from others about how they feel about things and any suggestions they have! Please be brutally honest — I don’t even care if you say I’m a problem, tbh, it’s more beneficial to everyone if you just give it to us straight so that we can fix things.

THIS POST ALSO SERVES AS A REMINDER TO BE INCLUSIVE IC & OOC — YOU CAN HAVE YOUR GROUPS BUT PLEASE BE MINDFUL THAT YOU AREN’T EXCLUDING OR IGNORING OTHERS. THANK YOU!

[Beatles.]

// mobile

I know I can’t say a lot since I’ve only been here for a day? And it takes time to get integrated into a community.

But already, there’s just- lots of people. There’s lots of friend groups as well, both IC and OOCly. That’s not a bad thing, but when people start getting excluded, then it becomes bad. People don’t /know/ when they’re being cliquey, so I don’t entirely blame the community.

Personally, I think you guys are a nice bunch. There’s just so so many people and it can be hard to be heard over all of the voices. It’s like funneling characters and plots down a tube, and it can become quite cramped and therefore people just might pick and choose who they pay attention to (another reason why BoB needs to work on dividing activity between all four groups). Things do get a little hectic with a bunch of friends in one place, so I’ve been simply observing instead of taking part in the discord for now.

I did have to mute the plotting channel yesterday though. That’s just because a group of people were plotting between themselves and I couldn’t really find a way to... jump in? And I was sort of intimidated tbh. Again, it’s not their fault. People can get carried away.

As for the extra plotting channel, I’m torn on it. On one hand, it could help with dividing up discussions so that it’s not a big cluster. But on the other... there really,, /shouldn’t/ be a need for another one? I think it should just be a matter of regulating the original one in the first place. But I’m used to smaller groups, so if you think that a big group like Ascendants needs two plotting channels, then go for it.

But generally speaking, it really is kind of hard to manage a large memberbase, so I know it can be a large job for you, Madi. We just have a lot of people, and we can’t help that? We still want to be mindful about inclusiveness, though.

[roman]

[align=center]

I’m not really sure if I have anything beneficial to add to this conversation but I’d like to input that while I feel left out in the discord, it’s mostly of my own doing. I check it maybe once a day? And when i do want to talk, people usually always started a conversation. I personally find it easier to plot or chat on the character channels because there’s less traffic and it’s more direct. As someone who has dealt with an unbelievable amount of clique discussions on wcrpg, ff, and now here, all i can say is that when a group starts growing and people begin forming their circles of friends, the best way to combat problematic cliques is just to encourage yourself and your friends to have private threads with newbies and even pay closer attention to other people’s posts so you can include/react to certain aspects. Even if it’s in a small way like having your character’s unique necklace acknowledged in a post or someone asking about their backstory, it’s nice to feel included.

And honestly, what I’ve started doing since I’m really awkward when it comes to plotting with others, I just have my characters show interests in others or form crushes without asking permission?? Like nothing too over the top, but i just make it obvious that my character has interest in another and that usually helps me get myself included and it enriches the role playing experiences.

The clique problem is a two-way street. Because everyone here is really kind (as far as i know), the solution is more of being aware of how you are including others. Do you try to interact on the chats all the time? Do you go directly to the person most relevant to the plot you have in mind? Do you notice that a new character has a unique quirk and do you include your own character reacting to it? Do you feel left out in ic situations? If so, do you interact less and less or do you make your character noticeable by having them talk to others without being invited? I hope this doesn’t come off as too unempathetic but I’ve had a long experience with being excluded (usually unintentionally) and it’s really helped to make myself impossible to be ignored rather than get too upset about it. No one really excludes people on purpose unless they’re mean, so all it takes is a little bit of direct action.

[arcy]

[align=center][div style="0px; width:400px; height:auto; text-align: justify; font-size: 8pt; line-height:13px;"]ok. okok. im gonna say right here this place is cliquey as fucK. ive been here for a few weeks and i didnt ever feel very included till recently. thats partly just me, the anxious bastard, tho. cause like,, i tend to have early character anxiety abt posting and it certainly didnt go away haa. it has eased up a lot more lately, though!!
anywAYS. yeah, theres,, big clique problems, especially icly, at least to me. but tbh id still Die for this place. like yall are so fuckign good i love u all. i know you all dont mean to be this cliquish and part of it is on me for being a goddamn anxious coward who doesnt like to put myself out there haa.
anyways im basically dittoing everybody else aaa.

[XYLO]

Dunno, I'm a newbie here, but 2nd channel sounds good just on principle. Not uncommon for any server with a decent size to have 2 of anything that tends to move fast, no matter the server topic.

For cliques in general, I agree with roman based on my own experiences. It's a two way street for sure. People need to put their characters out there if they want interaction and people need to give genuine interaction to those attempts, and I stress genuine. Posts don't need to be a missing chapter from a famous novel, but people can tell when it's phoned in. I always try to read tags. Really gives you a chance to personalize your replies and gives unique ways to interact. Ie; tags say this char is big fan of ghosts. your char mentions ghosts and they can talk about it which could lead to a friendship, an arguement, w/e- it's an interaction. And an interaction can only happen if both parties are present and try

[grassina]

[align=center][div style=" background-color: transparent; border: 0px solid black; width: 60%; min-height: 9px; font-family:; line-height: 110%; text-align: justify; padding: 20px"]hey y'all!! i've been a part of this group for four months! it's honestly been one heck of a ride, and i love this place so much. that being said, i am aware of the problems we're encountering - and i'm excited to get to work on fixing them.

i'll be the first to admit that i do sometimes get carried away with my character's family just because that's such a big part of her character. i won't make excuses for myself. at the same time however, i always actively try to add as many people in to the family dynamic as i can! so if you're feeling left out, hmu and i'll work your character in!

that being said, if anyone is ever feeling ignored or left out (on discord or otherwise), please speak up! i promise that no one is going to be angry. it is so much more beneficial in the long run - to you and those who are excluding

i'm also in favor of having another plotting channel. more breathing room is always better in my opinion - and spamming should be moved to character channels (kinda hard to monitor but it should be mentioned!!).

i also think we need to have an introduction channel, if that makes sense? kinda like the main bob discord has! i think it would be a good place for everyone to tell a bit about themselves and their character(s). it's a nice little way to start getting yourself involved in the community

additionally, florence has a huge meet-and-greet in the works (i believe), so that should help with giving everyone's characters the ability to interact!

as far as plotting goes, madi gave us the wonderful idea of backwriting: basically coming up with ideas for your character and someone else's and saying it's always been that way. i.e.: character x loves pranking character y, but character y doesn't mind because they have a crush on character x. it's a quick and easy way to get plots rolling - and it's an easy way to get your character involved in things imo!

also i loved xylo and roman's ideas regarding character participation for both parties!! plus always reading tags to help find commons interests is kickass, and i'm certainly going to be doing that a lot more because i didn't even think about it

another cool idea that i think would be fun to try out is like once every week or so, have our characters participate in a "buddy system" sort of thing. like a private thread between two "buddy" characters, catch them participating in a joint weekly task, and so on. i think that would help bring things together in a new and interesting way, but it's obviously still and idea in the works lmao - one that i'd be happy to help bring to life if everyone's on board / thinks it might help!!

[| AGENT WASHINGTON |]

bumping this bc its still an issue but idon't have to type things out yet.

[MADI]

[div style="width: 80%; font-family: verdana; text-align: justify; margin: auto"]alright! thanks for your input, everyone, and please still providing it! i've reached out to a few people who have left and sort of just been compiling information and general feelings i've gathered from others. so, an overview of things i want to focus on:
— with a lot of characters and joiners things are very fast and people are finding it harder to engage/get meaningfully integrated, they feel lost in the crowd, etc.
— existence of various friend or themed groups icly mean that people are likely to trend towards that group automatically, even if they try to include others, and some might avoid a group just out of fear of exclusion. those members then stick together. vicious cycle.
— a lot of information that is hard to explain to newcomers all at once / concisely. people are sort of confused by everything and they lose interest when they don't get what is going on, they feel like they're missing out on something / sort of just on the sidelines, never feel "in".
— current pace also usually means spread replies / missed threads when people are busy and things disappear off the front page quickly.
— discord use = ooc board plotting threads are used less, people feel like they aren't getting engagement from others.

and here is a list of solutions and responses to these problems that are either already implemented or are being developed and fully implemented now:

minor solutions — discord
— added a second plotting channel.
— added an open-threads channel for open ic threads that need replies.
— added an introductions channel for newcomers to give info about themselves.

ooc bonding/meeting new people solutions
— ooc icebreakers
— encourage more random ooc threads and games just for chatting on-site and not just on the discord

addressing group dynamics
— develop the buddy system to bring individuals out of their friend group and get them to interact directly and extensively with those from other groups: foster true interactions and getting to know others ic (and ooc as a result of planning tasks together).
— add more weekly tasks that pair off random members who might not know one another that well.
— many of the odyssey title tasks encourage engaging / plotting with others for things. 

simplifying and lessening the load of information
— revamping the titles guide a little bit, moving the pixel builder to a normal ooc thread just for funsies / where people can chat about them / i can help with the codes and stuff instead of cluttering the titles guide with it.
— most of the buddy tasks will address introducing newcomers to traditions, ranks, titles, etc.

full explanation of buddy system
— 2:2 buddy pairing, two older members and two newer members, can be 1:2 -- the 2:2 is just a safety net so that if someone goes inactive, there is still one older member and one newer member in the group, so that these tasks actually happen.
— the idea is to pair new:old to help integrate newcomers, but also to pair group A:group B to get older members to mingle with those outside of their circle. so it should be three-four very random members grouped together.
— buddy pairs will fall into different categories. idea there will be A buddy groups, B buddy groups, etc, for tasks and stuff.
— buddy pairs will have certain tasks to complete together, but there will be some that require them to pair up with other groups. there will be two different types of pairing: larger activities that ask them to work as a category ("category A buddy pairs do this together") and smaller activities that ask them to choose a pair from a different category to complete their task ("category A buddy group joined up with someone from category C").

buddy pair tasks (aka approx 3-4 ppl)
— getting their shards from the starpool and explaining the pendants tradition to newcomers, bringing them to the clerics to have a pendant crafted, reminding them to go to monthly ceremonies to get those pendants given to them ic
— ic game / get to know you game of some form

larger activities, category tasks (aka approx 9-12 ppl)
— tours of the territory
— scavenger hunt (secondary get to know the territory/observatory game)
— q&a on clan happenings and stuff so far

smaller activities, cross category tasks (aka approx 6-8 ppl)
— orientation, introducing the title and rank structures and giving some explanation for them ic on a more personal / one on one basis

^ these are just rough ideas so far and i'm still working on more for the buddy system.
does this seem like too much to ask people to do / are they likely to? or is it an engaging enough way for newcomers to actually learn about the group and do things together?

[Xynphal]

To start off my reply: I will admit that I've been pretty bad with getting involved with other characters / people outside of my existing friend group. This is simply because I've built up a relationship with them both within RPing and outside of BoB. So obviously I feel more comfortable plotting / chatting with them. I am working to on easing myself outside of my personal group, but it's simply a time thing and getting used to others + their characters. With that out of the way I'll make a few points:

1.) I've noticed some groups within the Ascendants made up of several similarly-themed characters, or characters that all share the same backstory. By design, they form a clique. It is impossible not to do so, as the group evolves together. Immediately I find it challenging to plot with these sorts of characters, because their group is so tight, and my own character doesn't (or rather can't) fit in with them. It may be easy to plot something short-term, but long-term plots become a difficult challenge that I personally don't have the muse for. Single OCs are, IMO, the way to go for a healthy system. Cliques still may form based on how long they're in the clan, but it's so much easier to interact / plot with single OCs, rather than one that belongs to a group by design. Don't mean to hate on anyone's characters- there are plenty that can break out of this sort of 'cage'. But the obvious clique is obvious, and can't be avoided with this sort of thing.

2.) OOC plotting / chatting on-site is absolutely terrible. I don't like sending messages on a forum-based system. It takes too long to get replies and keep a conversation going. Discord, an instant-messaging system, is designed for this sort of thing. If I want to plot with somebody, I can tag them in the respective channel and get a response within minutes. I don't have to constantly refresh to see if I get a response, unlike on BoB. I understand not everyone has Discord (but why do you not?? It's amazing??), but I simply can't get behind doing OOC stuff on here. Discord is so much easier to use. Personal preference.

3.) The buddy system ideas currently listed are fantastic. Obviously it's going to take some experimenting to get it just right, but it's a good step in the right direction to help solve the clique issue.

4.) After about 2 1/2 weeks here on BoB, I still have relatively no clue on what to do with the beads / pendants / etc. My character just got a title, but there's nothing listed about what this title means (unless I'm blind)? I do feel like there's a lot of information to take in, and it's a bit of and overload for someone like me (who, quite honestly, isn't all that into forced traditions). Do think the guides needs to be simplified as stated. Buddy system will also help with this.

This is all I can think of at the moment.

[vellichor]

okay so apologies if this repeats anything bc i'm going to sleep soon and haven't read through all this lol. but tbh ascendants felt v cliquey to me the moment i joined with cece. i know part of it was bc it was v fast and had a lot of members so it was v overwhelming esp. when cece was more casual even when i first introduced her. however, even tho i feel like i was p active in the chat, i still often felt left out or like no one particularly cared if she was there or not outside of her family? i know there were multiple times where i was just passed over/completely ignored. this is understandable bc ascendants is a huge group so it's likely to happen every once in awhile. however, there was about a week where it was happening every day, multiple times a day, which is a lil wild.

i also had issues with multiple people just... not reading cece's posts lol. like there would be key details that other posts directly contradicted or just didn't acknowledge when it was clearly stated in said post.  i get that happening every once in awhile but there was one thread where only 1-2 people caught the main purpose which was v disappointing. idk just... overall i felt like no one really cared outside of a select group of people. obviously the last few weeks i haven't been active with her at all and that was in part due to the cliquey-ness ngl. i love cece and have tons of muse for her but ascendants is honestly p uncomfortable for me sometimes.

also, to add to the buddy system, i think it's a good step but i'm not sure how practical that idea is. i hate to be cynical but buddy systems, generally speaking, die after about a week or two. it's a good idea but it's not super practical, based on what i've seen elsewhere. in the end, if someone really doesn't want to plot with someone else or doesn't really care what's going on with them, a buddy system won't really change that from what I've seen? I think it'd be better to incorporate something similar to it into weekly tasks and prompts (such as having people do tasks together or things involving other people) or finding some other way to fit it into rp more naturally so people can get a better idea of who they might interact with but aren't necessarily forced to i guess? or maybe even some kinda plot that pushes them together or smth but idk... i just feel like buddy systems, generally speaking, aren't able to last a very long time. i do think it seems interesting but i'm not sure if, realistically, it would stay in continued use.